Prove Psi Doesn't Exist

[Bobrobyn]

Proof that psi _doesn't_ exist...yes, that's right, does anyone out there have proof that it does not exist? I'm curious :-P (Don't ask me how you prove something does not exist, either, lol)

~Bob

[Pavlov's Dog]

that seemed rather heretical.

[Elliptic]

Um, "The burden of evidence lies on the claimant. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

/Devil's Advocate

[Winged_Wolf]

That always raises the question, though, of exactly what is "extraordinary".

[ANKA, Master Psion]

Lack of proff is not proff of lacking.

[Bobrobyn]

I partially agree with you there Elliptic, but I figured I'd start this post to see if anyone is willing to attempt to prove it doesn't exist, since there are very few people in psi communties that are willing to go through the challenge. I think it would be something interesting worth proving the non existense of. Particularly, I was wondering if anyone had any substansive proof that it doesn't exist...I figured it would be interesting.

~Bob

[Firestorm]

How exactly can one prove that something doesn't exist? I really can't think of an experimentt that could even begin to test for psi under every condition possible, as that would be what one would need to do. Therefore, I side with ANKA in that a lack of proof =/= proof of a lack. That sounds a bit odd, i know, but I couldn't think of a better way of phrasing it.

[Bobrobyn]

Meh, this was meant as a more amusing post then not...but I was also curious at the same time. Yes, it's practically impossible to prove something doesn't exist :-P It's no different then saying "Proove that aliens do not exist" or "Prove that there aren't invisible fuzzy bunnies that like to steal shiny stuff"...alrighty then :-p

~Bob

[Sol]

Extraordinary actually means outside the ordinary. So if we have evidence of someone being able to remotely move objects with their mind, sense things outside of their normal perception (as in RV), remotely change the temperature of something (hot/cold psi balls... I'm not sure how much people are able to affect air temperature with them.) and other such things, that is certianly outside of the ordinary.

But really, the "If you want to prove something exists, try and prove that it DOESN'T exist" is a good idea, because it lets people think about both sides of the argument and consider it better. I think many would agree that SOMETHING is going on when people practice and use psi, even if it's not exactly what we predict.

[Bobrobyn]

Hmm, that's an interesting comment...using the anti-thesis method. Basically, using your "enemies" arguments to support your own by saying why they're wrong. It's a nice way to lengthen essays :-P

~Bob

Edit: I think it's called anti-thesis, anyways.

[CrimsonTurkey]

It's a text book example of an Appeal to Ignorance, a fallacy of relevance.

The definition is as follows:

The fallacy of appeal to ignorance comes in two forms: (1) Not knowing that a certain statement is true is taken to be a proof that it is false. (2) Not knowing that a statement is false is taken to be a proof that it is true. The fallacy occurs in cases where absence of evidence is not good enough evidence of absence. The fallacy uses an unjustified attempt to shift the burden of proof. The fallacy is also called "Argument from Ignorance."
Example:

You can't prove that I'm not God, so therefore I am.

This kind of reasoning is generally fallacious. It would be proper reasoning only if the proof attempts were quite thorough, and it were the case that if God did exist, then there would be a discoverable proof of this.

[Winged_Wolf]

Entirely true. You see the same type of fallacious reasoning on both sides of the fence when it comes to discussing psi phenomena.

The camp against claims that 'Because psi has not been proven to exist in spite of research, it does not exist'.

The camp for claims "Because psi has been evidenced in research, and has not been proven to not exist, it must exist".

The reality is that the evidence for the existence of psionics is inconclusive. It neither proves nor disproves the existence of psi. We have a bit too much evidence for it from research to dismiss the idea, but not enough to give it a stable footing.

We'll simply have to deal with the fact that in terms of science, we know nothing yet.

[Arkhaios]

I postulate that psi is more of an empty box, something to translate energy from one form to another. When you have a thought to move your arm, the reactions use psi to translate from one form to the next. Magnetic, to electrical, to mechanical, it stems from the interactions of our awareness with the observable phenomenon of reality. Using ones arm to move an object is no different from using ones mind to move an object. The energy is just being transferred through different pathways. The energy takes on different forms as it moves through different molds, (spaces), which are geometric and spiraling and amorphic patterns of space. The thing which allows objects and phenomenon to be seperate, is space... the idea of nothing. Psi is quantum space and not exactly measurable because we are looking for a quantity. Psi can only be quantified by observing interactions of observable, quantifiable forces. Psi exists as a forming agent, i.e. (consciousness?) and the archaic meaning of the character psi, stems of psukhe, which is spirit, or breath, or mind. Psi allows energy to change form and it exists everywhere, but in theory, it is absent of any sort of measurable quantity, because... it's empty space. Psi is a true blank canvas and everything else is color.

[Winged_Wolf]

Then why is it so near-universally perceived as a palpable thing which can be shaped and molded, programmed to hold patterns, formatted, and read?

[CrimsonTurkey]

My personal theory is that our scienticts haven't made the "bio-electric field = chi/prana/psi" leap.

Back in the day (please don't take me as an obnoxious button wearing "Burning Times" blabbering buffone) the Catholic church did a pretty damn good job of stamping sorcery out of main-stream society. As such, when the modern scientific system evolved a few hundred years later, it was not designed to work with ideas of spiritual and psychic energies. Since the Western science model was pretty much universally adopted, magic and technology have never reconciled.

Fast forward to now. Now science has sufficient technology to see chi/prana/psi in good detail, but we have yet to create a model as to how this bio-electric field can do things like assault other's minds, throw up shields, summon Vassago, create ripples in spacetime, etc.

[Winged_Wolf]

Actually, I think what is being detected is a side-effect of psi use, rather than psi itself.

[johngault22]

summon Vassago

What's Vassago? (excuse me if I'm being a metaphsyical noob)

[CrimsonTurkey]

He's one of the demons from Solomon's Grimoires. Usually considered the best as a first evocation, since he tends to be the most friendly.

"Vassago is a mighty Prince of Hell, ruling over twenty-six legions of demons. He can be persuaded to tell the magician of events past and future, can discover hidden and lost things, and has a "good" nature."

I do the whole high magic thing too.

[Winged_Wolf]

Yeah, you won't find magick discussion on this forum, it's all pure psi. Some folks probably know a few things though.

[CrimsonTurkey]

That's why I came here. :-D

However, he asked about the friendly demon so I figured I'd answer.

[Bobrobyn]

Okay, I don't know what I was thinking when I made this post, rofl. Ah well...may it continue to grow :P I honestly have nothing to add...I just read through it and honestly can't believe I posted this, hehe.

[Arkhaios]

Then why is it so near-universally perceived as a palpable thing which can be shaped and molded, programmed to hold patterns, formatted, and read?

Like I said, psi is possibly just a container and can do nothing on its own. Psi must use the observable forces to interact with physical reality. Things like heat, cold, magnetism and electricity, are forces which are felt by psi users. On top of this, all the sensations and experiences that we are both aware and unaware of, are felt because of the wonderful thing our body does called bio-feedback. We produce a likeness, or a picture of what our bodily mechanisms experience, to perceive our constantly chaotic, yet orderly compilation of occurances. We don't perceive in a direct manner, that is, all the things we experience, the sensations we ''feel'' are reproduced inside of our minds. Experiences of psi could be attributed to the phenomenon of consciousness interacting directly with reality by using psi* patterns which are arranged in certain ways resulting in forces interacting in a different manner than they normally would. Getting back to the quote, psi is so ''near-universally'' perceived as tangible because of it's near-universal presence in the interactions of all things. Psi exists as an idea and not a quantity, but it can still be defined as a perceivable "thing" because we have the capability to define abstract concepts. The reason it would be just an idea and not an actual quantifiable thing is because psi itself is just empty space dividing matter and defining it's states on a subatomic level. If peices of matter are arranged in a different pattern, they exist in a different state. Now, the reason we can interact with this "nothingness" and perceive it is because we are the ones who came up with the idea of 'a space absent of things' in the first place... so, I just dropped a bomb there, but take some time and try to understand what I am talking about. It has to do with awareness and creation of ideas.

*(quantum spaces of idealistic nothingness, but it is not nothing because even empty space is still an idea of what nothing should be...)

[Winged_Wolf]

I perceive psi in an untranslated fashion sometimes.

So, why can you give empty space sentience?

[Ramza]

I think you have a perfectly valid theory of how/what psi is, however I have never seen any evidence that leads me to believe that the "idea psi" theory is any more (or less) accurate then the "physical psi" theory.

It seems that all psi phenomena are explained equally well by either system.

What I'm basically saying is that you have theory, not fact. The only way you could prove your theory with fact would be to disprove the other, and you can no more disprove a psi theory, then you can disprove psi itself. (or at least, that's my opinion)

[Arkhaios]

So, why can you give empty space sentience?

Well, I didn't say that empty space is in fact sentient, but the idea of empty space is formed by our perceptions. The reason you may be able to give a construct sentience is because your mind is using the thought form that you create and altering the spaces of reality to fit a certain pattern, it would be called programming psi, basically. Different forms have different space patterning. It's not about the physical matter itself, because even the physical forms are broken down into more and more space. Perhaps we should start measuring psi in terms of what isn't present, rather than by what is.

[Winged_Wolf]

Ok, so the space has patterns...er...what fills up the rest? I mean, if psi is space, then what is the non-space made of? How could you manipulate the space without manipulating what is around it?

And why can constructs move around?

[Pavlov's Dog]

just got back from trying to understand the warped physics of the "thing" in psi theory, so forgive me if i am thinking at a warped level...

in physics, theres this thing called a system. as far as my teacher was able to explain it, a system is just an area in which things are done and their effects are measurable/there at all. what if (sensors detect warped physics) you think about the area you try to affect with psi as a system, and because systems are always separate, the effects within the area are limited to the system and the system alone and cannot affect anything outside the area you tried to affect, the system.

and thats just a little bit too much thinking on this topic for me right now. don't want to get locked into it. did that with matter a few weeks ago, and the results were unpleasant (although i have a much better understanding of matter now [i think]).

[Arkhaios]

haha, pavlov, from my understanding, matter doesn't exist at all, really. It's kind of like a bunch of empty bubbles arranged in different patterns. The outside of the bubble, or, the film that covers the bubble and allows for it to be called that, is superfluous, meaning, its everywhere and is everything, but it can't really be called something because it is all things. Now, think of these bubbles vibrating at different frequencies until they become solid enough to repel eatchother when they are arranged in systematic formations. Thats a little far off of this discussion, but I hope you understand.

[Winged_Wolf]

This is beginning to sound like you think nothing exists. Why couldn't it be the other way around--there's no such thing as empty space, there's always something there even if we can't perceive it yet?

Or maybe it's all just as it appears. <G>

[CrimsonTurkey]

Arkhaios, are you quoting the Tao Te Ching?

[Ramza]

Once again Arkhaios, you have interesting theory about how the world works, but you don't have proof or compelling evidence.

Isn't it just as likely that empty space does exist, and that objects are made out of particles of mass (as according to more traditional beliefs)?

We have two good theories’ here, but no good reason to favor one over the other.

[Pavlov's Dog]

you know, if nothing exists, how in the heck do you yourself perceive it?! even if you choose to belief that you make it all up, think about yourself... how are you going to make it up if you dont exist?

its all fine and dandy taking shortcuts out of these sorts of problems by deciding that nothing anywhere ever existed at all, but there are good reasons why those universes are not included in the probability sets.

[Arkhaios]

Crimson, I've never read the Tao Te Ching, these are ideas I mostly formulate on my own, or, they come to me through the collective. In any case, I never said that nothing is real, or nothing exists. My point is that the only reason there are forms, the only reason there is something, is because there is a particularly prevalent form throughout the universe which allows everything to exist as a particular thing; the idea of no thing, seemingly empty space, psi. It's still something, because it's an idea, a thoughform, a wave pattern, but it is not tangible. It is immeasurable as a quantity, but defineable as a factor. I think everything is made out of conceptual nothing, energy, and observations, not just pure nothing because that can't actually exist, IMO. You can't have true nothing because the moment you think about true nothing, the idea of what true nothing should be, becomes a thing. This is why I think psi itself cannot be measured in a direct manner and we have to rely on the effects of the energy patterns which psi holds in place.

Isn't it just as likely that empty space does exist, and that objects are made out of particles of mass (as according to more traditional beliefs)?

We have two good theories’ here, but no good reason to favor one over the other.

True absolute empty space can't exist, or at least, I can't conceive of it in a normal sense. I can understand a space that is absent of things, tangible forms, which would give off the appearance of being empty, but there still remains the fact that we give that apparently empty space a label(an idea of what a thing appears to be), thereby making the apparent nothing a something. But yes, it is just as likely that empty space does exist and the traditional views are right, but remember that people once held the idea that we are at the center of the solar system and universe even, as traditional. Now there is evidence to suggest otherwise, but when theories were previously presented, they were not accepted. I understand I have an interesting theory, but the currently accepted models are also just theories, and they aren't all that interesting or evident, compared the possible explanations that make more sense, to me at least. Besides, the current view is a big tangled mess, so we need something new and fresh to bring us out of the hole we have made for ourselves.

Winged Wolf has the clostest understanding so far, by pointing out the possibility of no such thing as empty space. Everything does indeed "exist". This includes the "idea of no thing", which is still a thing, an idea, and it is this idea of no thing, which allows definitive existence. If there weren't any ideas of nothing(what nothing should be), then everything is inseperable, unified and undefined. All things together as everything is the closest I can get to absolute nothing. If all things exist without seperation, there no longer can be the definition, or difference between one thing and the next. Wood and metal would be essentially the same, and IMO, they really ARE the same, but we live in a reality where we have the idea of nothing(psi), to hold energy in different forms. If you really think about this concept, it's paradoxical, but it somehow works. I think it's because we just want it to work, so it does. We want to live and die, we want to breath, we want to experience fruit and veggies and bread as seperate things, even though they aren't. We set up these ideas for ourselves and use these ideas of what nothing should be, to create the illusion of seperation.

[CrimsonTurkey]

you know, if nothing exists, how in the heck do you yourself perceive it?! even if you choose to belief that you make it all up, think about yourself... how are you going to make it up if you dont exist?


Cogito ergo sum (I think, therefore I am)
-Descartes

The problem we have is proving that anything other than the self exists.
I cite the skeptical argument:
1 - In the past, my senses have decieved me
2 - Therefore my senses could be decieving me right now, or at anytime in my past.
3 - I cannot trust my senses
4 - Therefore all information I have gained through sensory input cannot be trusted.

I know I exist... but the rest of this world could be a very cogent hallucination.


-Turkey

PS: Arkhaios, you should look into Taoist practices. Taoism meshes very well with psionics and most religions (if that's a factor). Bruce Kumar Frantzis' books on water meditation are a good place to start. You already think in some ways like one.

[Winged_Wolf]

But ideas are not things, they are patterns in things. A book is made of paper and ink. A pile of paper and a puddle of ink is not a book. It is the pattern of the ink on the pages of the paper which creates the symbols called letters. These symbols have meaning because the patterns formed by the electrical impulses in our brain are able to interpret them as having meaning.

Without the patterns, there is no book.


While it is true that we cannot completely trust our senses, it is also true that we have no reason to believe that they are always failing us. It is a logical fallacy to conclude that because our senses are fallible, everything we sense must be false.

Yes, the world could be a hallucination. That does not mean that it IS a hallucination, it only means that we personally cannot be certain.

Which view of reality is more productive, causes you greater joy, and less pain?

[Pavlov's Dog]

so you conclude that because you have mis-interpreted sensory input, the entire universe is completely nullified and only you yourself exist in a permanant trance-state within it. i think i can work with that...

1) my senses are wrong, therefor nothing but myself exists.
2) because only i exist, my life is in fact a representation of a constant hallucination.
3) because my senses are my only way of perceiving my life, my life does not exist
4) because all of my memories were gained through the use of some sense, none of my memories ever happened
5) because my memories could never have possibly happened, my life could not have begun at any point in time.

conclusion: i do not exist in this or any other dimension. i cannot exist in any existant or potentially existant universe. because i interacted with other so called people, for whom these conclusions also apply in exactly the same manner, i am a schizophrenic loser who's life does not exist and does not affect the flow of time in any way. whatever universe i attempted to project myself into is completely unaffected and continues on its merry way.

and because you only know that you exist through the use of your senses, you are also crazy.



sorry to rain on your parade like that. but you've lived a good life, right?

[CrimsonTurkey]

I never said that my senses were wrong, I said that they were entirely untrustworthy.

The next logical step would be to realize that philosophy now exists entirely in the realm of ideas. However, apart from the cogito and conceptual mathmatics, it is difficult at best to prove any sort of idea without the use of sensory input.

Bringing this back to "ye olde proof od psi dicussion," basically, our first step in order to prove psi would be to prove the existence of other souls. I know I exist, but I sure don't know that you all do. If we can figure out this proof, then empaths will have a means of working that does not require physical proof.

[Winged_Wolf]

How about we settle for reasonable evidence of psi, which is what we have for everything else in common use in physics? <G>

[Arkhaios]

Winged Wolf, without the idea for a book to start with, the words are meaningless and they exist without a form. Ideas are primary to the existence of patterns, as complex systems of ideas give rise to the recognition of patterns. The only reason symbols have any meaning whatsoever is because they are meant to simplify or exemplify the meaning of an idea.

Without an idea for a story there is no possibility of a book, but once there is an idea, then symbols, paper, and ink are all created to manifest the idea.

[Winged_Wolf]

The idea itself is a pattern in someone's mind, formed by the electrical impulses in their brain. Outside of this, it has no existence.
It is only a pattern IN something, it is not a thing itself.

A meme is a self-propagating idea...again, it's a pattern. Patterns are what create life.

[Arkhaios]

Yes, Winged Wolf, you are right, outside of an electrical impulse, we have yet been able to measure a thought. This is what I am saying, your backing me up, psi is a meme, a self-propogating idea.

The idea itself is a pattern in someone's mind, formed by the electrical impulses in their brain. Outside of this, it has no existence.

If psi is a meme, an idea, then it's a pattern of electrical impulses, yet, outside of this it has no existence? Winged Wolf, if a pattern is not a thing, how do patterns create things? How can nothing create something? If an idea is a pattern, an electrical impulse and has no existence outside of this, then how does a self-propogated nothing create life? If patterns of ideas create life, then everything we see is an idea... the idea of no thing.

You kinda proved my point...

If you own everything, you have nothing. If you own nothing, you have something.

[Winged_Wolf]

The only thing patterns create is more patterns. Conservation of energy and mass. They use things to create more patterns.

Ideas do not exert force, the medium they are formed in exerts force. Psi exerts force, therefore it is not an idea--it is not merely a pattern, but is a medium.

[Pavlov's Dog]

wow, this thread is off track. i can understand it shifting from proof that psi energy does not exist to why you would think that it doesnt exist. but this is just too far. its like it polarized and is now shooting off in ever more pointless tangents.

[Arkhaios]

Life is an elaborate pattern, don't you agree?

Ok, so no one really knows for sure what psi actually is... that still doesn't change the fact that we, as humans, have the capability to interact with reality in many ways. I think calling psi a tangible, measurable medium, as if it were a wave or a field or particle, isn't quite right. Psi itself does exist, and can be understood, but it can not be directly measured or observed, as if it were an object. What can be directly measured and observed are the effects of existing forces acting upon eatchother . I find it amusing that when these forces interact abnormally, or in ways we perceive to be unnatural, or previously thought to be impossible, we make up new names for the same forces that have always been at work. Bottom line, we need to do more research to see what forces are actually at work when we interact with energy psionically.

[Winged_Wolf]

But I can directly observe psi energy rather easily, Arkhaios. I can measure it, too, in a comparative ballpark sort of way. It can't yet be MECHANICALLY detected, but that doesn't mean it will NEVER be.

[Arkhaios]

Our observations of reality are not direct. Our consciousness assimilates the incoming sensory signals and compiles them into a coherant(sometimes) picture. We are not perceiving light, heat or any other type of energy directly, so any effects which you attribute to psi, are generated in your mind, based on certain signal patterns. Our sensory organs get direct input, but we operate on a relay system in which our organs generate electrical signals based on the input they receive, then they send the signals to the brain for processing and compilation.

If we were able to process and understand all the sensory information that was coming in at any one time, we would be experiencing a great deal of noise and conflicting interference. This is why people with psionic ability experience chatter, frequencies and other things that people don't normally experience. They have an altered consciousness that is able to perceive more of the input that is coming in from the sensory organs. Most people just block it out, and most of the time for their own safety. Not everyone can handle listening to the constant stream of babbling insanity that spills from the mind of humanity.

I think the reason you can observe the effects of psi and comparitavely measure it, is because you and other people, are in the practice of working with energy through consciousness. Psi is a huge factor in the exchange of energy. I think it allows the seperation of energy cells, so they can form specific patterns, much like programming. However the energy that is made to do work, is not psi. The human eye cannot see psi, nor can the human skin feel psi, and if you claim you can, it just means you have adjusted your brain to interperet specific patterns of energy in relation to specific events.

We can understand psi, and use psi to change patterning of energy(change temperatures, disturb electrical pathways, etc...), but I don't think we will ever be able to directly measure or mechanically observe actual psi, because it has no mass, or charge and IMO, psi is a containter space that is absent of things. This would allow psi to form any type of pattern imaginable. The more complex and powerful you want to make something, the higher your skill has to be in order to succesfully make what you want. Psi does exist, but not in the way that we think it does.

[Elliptic]

The lack of paragraphs makes it difficult for me to determine whether you actually are speaking coherently, but your premise is incorrect, and your theories regarding human sensory perception are baseless.

The human eye registers light signals. It then translates those signals in the brain to create the coherent signal. If something generates or reflects light, we see it. In the rare cases when psi reflects light, we see it.

The human skin is covered in touch receptors which trigger when impacted. It is quite possible to create psionic effects that are undeniably feelable, and trigger the sense of touch. It has nothing to do with "the mind learning to translate it like this" because total nons with no concept of psi can "feel" it physically all the same.

Now, the mind does tend to translate our "other" senses into the traditional five in some cases - I've been told that non-telepaths who learn telepathy actually "hear" things like a sound, because their mind doesn't have the faculties for telepathic sense in a pure manner. Also, "seeing" energy such as in sensing it in fields, etc., is often performed by synaesthetically linking the "energy sense" to the visible sense in order for the mind to deal with it more easily.

However, this is not to say that we don't have any actual sensory input from psi - we do. We can detect psi with a variety of lab equipments (I believe Sean over at Pog has been having success with a Geiger counter) and we can feel it, physically, when it's used. At least the several people at my school to whom I've demonstrated it can, as well as my family.

Hmm, having re-read, it seems you're trying to say the same thing as I am, regarding sensory input. It just rubbed me wrong the first time I read it.

[Arkhaios]

yeah, I tend to get carried away and forget that grammar thing called a paragraph sometimes. What parts of my premise do you perceive as incorrect? I am expecting a response of... the entire thing... but let me know anyway. By the way, what does the measurement of psi register as, I mean, what force does it show up as?

[Elliptic]

Your premise is not as incorrect as I'd perceived, I'd gotten confused reading it all in one block, and thought you were making some kind of solipsist argument.

The research going on over at Pog indicates it is detected by radiation detectors. I've also had success detecting it as electromagnetic radiation.

[Anazrieth]

It is too bad that Labs which have equipment capable of detection on the quantum level are not attempting to detect Psi. Although that is assuming they aren't. But i've never heard of it happening.

[Pavlov's Dog]

theres a lot of unexplained results gathered in those sorts of places. the key word there is "unexplained", and in this case means that no cause is known. particle physics is the science searching for it, and possibly also quantum mechanics, although quantum mechanics is getting way too jumbled up with string theory to have the sort of chance for important discoveries that particle physics currently does.

and as far as an actual measurement, ive given that some thought myself. because the fact of the matter is, you cannot label something as "EM Radiation". thats a freaking huge label for stuff. by saying that, you imply a more specific measurement or type. unless you want to end up talking about radios, microwave ovens, fire, light bulbs, suntan booths, x-ray machines, and supernovae (pl.sp?[lt.der]) with exactly the same terminology. it would be rather awkward. but i havent given it enough thought or had enough experience to define a better unit, let alone a unit that another living thing (constructs, energy beings, and extradimensional visitors included) might accept as usable.

[johngault22]

To go back to the notions of reality(I was out of range of a computer for the weekend but if I read this thread earlier I would of posted this comment), In the beginning there was the word[idea]. IMHO

Note I don't subscribe to any major religion.

[ideal]

It is too bad that Labs which have equipment capable of detection on the quantum level are not attempting to detect Psi. Although that is assuming they aren't. But i've never heard of it happening.

I'm sure it was fully investigated back in the spy games days, there's plenty of rumor going around about the research. Whether or not the CIA/KGB/insert evil intelligence agency here properly understood and recorded their information is a different question all together.

[Athlete]

Prove that flying teapot and spagetti monster do not exist. Same thing. If you are claiming something exists, you have to prove it, otherwise it is by default - possibly nonexistant.

[enntross]

Fist of all, it's so intricate to prove psi skills doesn't exist because the scientist found the brain pick up and emit different waves therefore i'll give all my regards to any people who reach to prove that psych doesn't exist.

[NoMad]

Athlete, the thing with claiming something exists is that you don't have to prove it, you only need to prove something if you are trying to convince someone else that it exists, the fact of the matter is, most of us could care less if anyone doesn't believe in this.

[arteinis]

Prove that flying teapot and spagetti monster do not exist. Same thing. If you are claiming something exists, you have to prove it, otherwise it is by default - possibly nonexistant.


No proof for God and yet millions of people - right or wrong - subscribe to this particular belief.That's not to say if a majority of people believe something,it makes the object of belief anymore true or real,but it doesn't make it anymore nonexistent due to lack of evidence.

Besides,'possibly nonexistent' is a completely nonspecific term.Yes,everything that we don't have evidence for is possibly nonexistent,but on the flipside it is possibly existent.


I'm with nomad - proof is for other people. :p

[abcopp]

anybody heard of innocent until proven guilty

same thing should go here too

[NoMad]

in a perfect world that would be true, but the same can be said for athletes theory as being the innocent one, technically speaking. thinking something doesn't exist as being the innocent thing would require us to prove that it does exist. but then again, i'm contradicting myself for the sake of being accurate, fair and true. so don't listen to me.

[Winged_Wolf]

You should understand, atomic structure was still theory when the first nuclear weapon was created.
Personally, that's where I am at. I don't care if we've seen an atom (psi energy) yet. I'm going to be USING it, in the meantime. Arguments about whether or not it exists are moot when you USE it every day. <lol>